When art meets buissness

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	Topic: When art meets buissness
Posted : 29/07/10 / Views : 561 / Replies : 9 /
Stephen.Gosnell 30 posts last on: 07/02/12 send private reply	I recently had an audition for a theatre role profit share,The director wanted 3 weeks mon/fri 9-5 rehersing then 18 performances ,6 weeks in total. I decided to ask what the expected profit was,they couldnt tell me,and seemed put out that i asked,the only info i could get was that the venue could hold 54. Now the point i am trying to make is, Should we as actors view ourselves as a buissness and auditions as buissness meetings. If im going to work for 6 weeks full time should i have the right to expect the Casting people to have a buissness model prepared.

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	Reply #1
Posted : 29/07/10
markkempner 1113 posts last on: 07/02/12 send private reply	Very good question, and starter for debate....yes is the answer!! You are self employed, and your product is YOU! Therefore you are entitled to at least ask, what your expected and or projected return is likely to be. As a company member if selected to play the role, you should also be entitled to see the profit and loss accounts for the entire production....why not? In fairness, with just 52 seats, probably zero will be your return! Not unless the project has an amazing 5 Star Time Out review, and the venue and show costs are kept very very cheap? Not usually the case with productions of this type. Keeping your business hat on…You then have to decide, will any agents and or casting come and see the show, in order for you to be seen working? From a business perspective, if you are not going to earn, you would at least be advertising your product. What return you will see from that is unknown from the off. In most cases we can give you the likeliest…all be it….most disappointing answer of course! You are a businessman, your business is you the actor, the director is auditioning you - so of course, yes, the director should be pleased to engage in conversation from all angles of the production inc payment. I would think it odd when auditioning actors, if they did not ask me about money….but then….I would not expect actors to work for nothing. There is something wrong with the business product, or model, if no profit can be made out of the production. Wish you well.

Reply #1

Posted : 29/07/10

markkempner
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last on: 07/02/12
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Very good question, and starter for debate....yes is the answer!!

You are self employed, and your product is YOU! Therefore you are entitled to at least ask, what your expected and or projected return is likely to be. As a company member if selected to play the role, you should also be entitled to see the profit and loss accounts for the entire production....why not? In fairness, with just 52 seats, probably zero will be your return! Not unless the project has an amazing 5 Star Time Out review, and the venue and show costs are kept very very cheap? Not usually the case with productions of this type.

Keeping your business hat on…You then have to decide, will any agents and or casting come and see the show, in order for you to be seen working? From a business perspective, if you are not going to earn, you would at least be advertising your product. What return you will see from that is unknown from the off. In most cases we can give you the likeliest…all be it….most disappointing answer of course!

You are a businessman, your business is you the actor, the director is auditioning you - so of course, yes, the director should be pleased to engage in conversation from all angles of the production inc payment.

I would think it odd when auditioning actors, if they did not ask me about money….but then….I would not expect actors to work for nothing. There is something wrong with the business product, or model, if no profit can be made out of the production.

Wish you well.

	Reply #2
Posted : 29/07/10
ForbesKB 1039 posts last on: 3 hours send private reply	That's exactly the mistake many actors make, not viewing themselves as a business! You did the right thing and asked the right questions. If they couldn't give you any coherant answer then walk away as they obviously have no intention of paying you anything! Another question to maybe ask them is what previous shows have they produced and what the actors were paid on those! Six week full time for nothing but fresh air is a lot to ask of anyone...you wouldn't ask your builder or plumber to work for a handshake and pack lunch so why do so many so called producers ask actors to do it...because for every actor that says no, they'll be 4 who let themselves get mugged off just to get a line on their CV! Walk away!

Reply #2

Posted : 29/07/10

ForbesKB
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That's exactly the mistake many actors make, not viewing themselves as a business! You did the right thing and asked the right questions. If they couldn't give you any coherant answer then walk away as they obviously have no intention of paying you anything! Another question to maybe ask them is what previous shows have they produced and what the actors were paid on those!

Six week full time for nothing but fresh air is a lot to ask of anyone...you wouldn't ask your builder or plumber to work for a handshake and pack lunch so why do so many so called producers ask actors to do it...because for every actor that says no, they'll be 4 who let themselves get mugged off just to get a line on their CV!

Walk away!

	Reply #3
Posted : 29/07/10
GUY5 395 posts last on: 07/02/12 send private reply	Spot on Mark & Forbes! We're businesses and that is the bottom line!!

	Reply #4
Posted : 29/07/10
MarkJoseph 537 posts last on: 07/02/12 send private reply	I don't blame him for not being able to forecast your profit on the show. Firstly, as said above, probably because it'd be nothing, but also because you genuinely can't know. You might sell 5 tickets, might sell 500. But yes, always keep your business hat on.

	Reply #5
Posted : 29/07/10
ForbesKB 1039 posts last on: 3 hours send private reply	Not being able to give a precise number maybe but to get bent out of shape when someone he's asking to work full time for free for 6 weeks asks about his business model and previous experience simply shows a lack of respect and a lack of professionalism! We, as actors, won't even get seen without at least a few decent credits on our CV...is it too much to ask what credits are on theirs and how those projects worked out! You are interviewing them as producers/directors just as much as they are auditioning your skills as an actor!

Reply #5

Posted : 29/07/10

ForbesKB
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Not being able to give a precise number maybe but to get bent out of shape when someone he's asking to work full time for free for 6 weeks asks about his business model and previous experience simply shows a lack of respect and a lack of professionalism!

We, as actors, won't even get seen without at least a few decent credits on our CV...is it too much to ask what credits are on theirs and how those projects worked out!

You are interviewing them as producers/directors just as much as they are auditioning your skills as an actor!

	Reply #6
Posted : 29/07/10
laz1 17 posts last on: 07/02/12 send private reply	When ever a show is advertised as Profit Share I would always go in expecting nothing. What you always need to evaluate is: a) You can afford to work the contract with no financial return b) Will it bring an opportunity to further your career...i.e suitable for agents to view, an prestigious Venue, well known director etc that would hold some merit. Lastly whilst on this subject I would like to warn that some of these companies can be a scam and treat you with little respect. When first starting out one company I was roped into landed up costing me money (and I found out later cost future cast members money). Best advice is to weigh up whether it is worth giving up 6 weeks for no payment. Unfortunately more and more companies and recruiting actors for no pay and the amount of people that except will always mean it would continue. Ask yourself this wouuld you work as a receptionist or waitor for no pay???

Reply #6

Posted : 29/07/10

laz1
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last on: 07/02/12
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When ever a show is advertised as Profit Share I would always go in expecting nothing. What you always need to evaluate is:
a) You can afford to work the contract with no financial return
b) Will it bring an opportunity to further your career...i.e suitable for agents to view, an prestigious Venue, well known director etc that would hold some merit.

Lastly whilst on this subject I would like to warn that some of these companies can be a scam and treat you with little respect. When first starting out one company I was roped into landed up costing me money (and I found out later cost future cast members money).

Best advice is to weigh up whether it is worth giving up 6 weeks for no payment.

Unfortunately more and more companies and recruiting actors for no pay and the amount of people that except will always mean it would continue. Ask yourself this wouuld you work as a receptionist or waitor for no pay???

	Reply #7
Posted : 29/07/10
Stephen.Gosnell 30 posts last on: 07/02/12 send private reply	Thanks for the replies,the casting people werent rude just seemed perturb by the question.

	Reply #8
Posted : 29/07/10
markkempner 1113 posts last on: 07/02/12 send private reply	If the producer has no business plan…business model or whatever; or felt perturbed to even enter into such a discussion, that would set off a big warning bell in my head! Who, other than actors, would even consider investing a minimum of £1,900 earning potential, based on £65 per day "approx" value over a 6 week period, into any business without at least getting an assurance of how any financial return is to be divided/calculated, should an audience turn up and a profit be made! I think Stephen…you had a lucky escape! Perturbed? Do me a favour! I would be polite and ask; how and where the show is to be marketed? What shows has the director and or the Co done in the past…and how did they sell? Do shows generally sell well at this venue? …and so on. That would install a confidence in me as the director/producer, that I am dealing with an actor who is not a chancer: a proper professional who would get my utmost respect. This is the sort of person who is likely to be at each RHSL…on time, respond to his/her emails and so on. Laura ….raises a further interesting issue. The scam element. Only with a proper contract and agreement in place at the time of the audition, can that be avoided. I was told about a person last year who cast 7 actors in a fringe production….and the day before first RHSL, asked them all for £100 each. This was because the theatre had unexpectedly raised its hire fee…and would therefore impact on the shows budget. They all had a crisis meeting…in a pub….and 5 of them were actually willing to hand over £500 cash to the Director!!! One of them said "no way" and walked out of the meeting and production altogether. The other one popped out for a fag…and rang the venue, and they knew nothing of the production in the first place!! He ran back into the pub just as the 5 others were starting to open their wallets etc!! I think all actors should watch and draw parallels with DRAGONS DEN. No proper business plan = no flipping investment, even if its just my time, or talent! I think as actors, we sometimes get distracted by artistic glory! If producers and actors approached projects in a more business like manner….standards would soon rise (they'd have too) …everyone would know where they were, and a greater professional edge and respect would spread throughout the industry. Cue "Land of Hope and Glory" ….or Scotland the Brave in Forbe's case!!

Reply #8

Posted : 29/07/10

markkempner
1113 posts
last on: 07/02/12
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If the producer has no business plan…business model or whatever; or felt perturbed to even enter into such a discussion, that would set off a big warning bell in my head!

Who, other than actors, would even consider investing a minimum of £1,900 earning potential, based on £65 per day "approx" value over a 6 week period, into any business without at least getting an assurance of how any financial return is to be divided/calculated, should an audience turn up and a profit be made! I think Stephen…you had a lucky escape!

Perturbed? Do me a favour! I would be polite and ask; how and where the show is to be marketed? What shows has the director and or the Co done in the past…and how did they sell? Do shows generally sell well at this venue? …and so on.

That would install a confidence in me as the director/producer, that I am dealing with an actor who is not a chancer: a proper professional who would get my utmost respect. This is the sort of person who is likely to be at each RHSL…on time, respond to his/her emails and so on.

Laura ….raises a further interesting issue. The scam element. Only with a proper contract and agreement in place at the time of the audition, can that be avoided.

I was told about a person last year who cast 7 actors in a fringe production….and the day before first RHSL, asked them all for £100 each. This was because the theatre had unexpectedly raised its hire fee…and would therefore impact on the shows budget. They all had a crisis meeting…in a pub….and 5 of them were actually willing to hand over £500 cash to the Director!!! One of them said "no way" and walked out of the meeting and production altogether. The other one popped out for a fag…and rang the venue, and they knew nothing of the production in the first place!! He ran back into the pub just as the 5 others were starting to open their wallets etc!!

I think all actors should watch and draw parallels with DRAGONS DEN. No proper business plan = no flipping investment, even if its just my time, or talent! I think as actors, we sometimes get distracted by artistic glory!

If producers and actors approached projects in a more business like manner….standards would soon rise (they'd have too) …everyone would know where they were, and a greater professional edge and respect would spread throughout the industry.

Cue "Land of Hope and Glory" ….or Scotland the Brave in Forbe's case!!

	Reply #9
Posted : 29/07/10
leeravitz 1543 posts last on: 4 hours send private reply	I think, as Mark J suggested, it is always unlikely that a company that intends on paying profit share can actually tell you what you will recieve at the end of the run - it really will depend on the amount of tickets they manage to sell, and that, naturally, is open to all kinds of influences (though knowing a little about how well the company seem to be planning their publicity campaign, how regularly they perform shows and whether they have a proven track record with audiences etc. are often good indicators for you as to whether they are likely to generate profit or not). However, even if they can't be precise on your 'earnings', the company should be well in tune with their own accounts (i.e. their personal incomings and outgoings relative to mounting the production), and should also be prepared to give you an indication of what your percentage cut of any potential take should amount to. It is certainly true that turning a profit tends to work in accordance with a basic set of principles: the show has to sell well, preferably for several weeks, and either it sells many tickets at relatively cheap prices and the profit accumulates or it sells out a few seats regularly at very steep prices. It is also true that many productions are on a hiding to nothing in terms of generating this profit because they cannot muster an adequate audience who will produce this revenue. However, what is surprising is that more 'profit share' companies generate profit than you might think (i.e. the show can be broadly considered to have been a success), but the actors will never see any great payout because offsetting the initial costs of mounting the production is so expensive in the first instance. Once the cost of hiring a performance venue, hiring a rehearsal space, hiring costume, making props, crafting sets, designing publicity etc. etc. is factored in, this can completely invalidate any potential profit. For this reason, if no other, it is always very hard to generate much money from profit share, even if the show is sell-out, because there is no funding in place initially to offset the costs that cut into everyone's eventual profit. In that sense, most successful profit share technically doesn't make profit - it breaks even. As Forbes said, for this reason, the main reason you should be considering profit share is not for the money, but for the possibility of garnering good publicity, reviews or representation - which cannot always be guaranteed from doing it - but should at the least be hoped for, and should decide you over the quality of profit share production you'd be prepared to take part in. With all that said, asking for some kind of contract or response over these questions at auditions is perfectly within your rights; getting accounts delivered to you at the end of a run is also your right. A good profit share setup won't question this, and will respond to you. The bemused reaction in this case implies that the company have not actually thought about their production as a business venture at all, and so are almost certain to be unable to generate any money, because they have no concern for what's being spent or saved, let alone what profit they will ultimately generate.

Reply #9

Posted : 29/07/10

leeravitz
1543 posts
last on: 4 hours
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I think, as Mark J suggested, it is always unlikely that a company that intends on paying profit share can actually tell you what you will recieve at the end of the run - it really will depend on the amount of tickets they manage to sell, and that, naturally, is open to all kinds of influences (though knowing a little about how well the company seem to be planning their publicity campaign, how regularly they perform shows and whether they have a proven track record with audiences etc. are often good indicators for you as to whether they are likely to generate profit or not).

However, even if they can't be precise on your 'earnings', the company *should* be well in tune with their own accounts (i.e. their personal incomings and outgoings relative to mounting the production), and should also be prepared to give you an indication of what your percentage cut of any potential take should amount to.

It is certainly true that turning a profit tends to work in accordance with a basic set of principles: the show has to sell well, preferably for several weeks, and either it sells many tickets at relatively cheap prices and the profit accumulates or it sells out a few seats regularly at very steep prices. It is also true that many productions are on a hiding to nothing in terms of generating this profit because they cannot muster an adequate audience who will produce this revenue. However, what is surprising is that more 'profit share' companies generate profit than you might think (i.e. the show can be broadly considered to have been a success), but the actors will never see any great payout because offsetting the initial costs of mounting the production is so expensive in the first instance. Once the cost of hiring a performance venue, hiring a rehearsal space, hiring costume, making props, crafting sets, designing publicity etc. etc. is factored in, this can completely invalidate any potential profit. For this reason, if no other, it is always very hard to generate much money from profit share, even if the show is sell-out, because there is no funding in place initially to offset the costs that cut into everyone's eventual profit. In that sense, most successful profit share technically doesn't make profit - it breaks even.

As Forbes said, for this reason, the main reason you should be considering profit share is not for the money, but for the possibility of garnering good publicity, reviews or representation - which cannot always be guaranteed from doing it - but should at the least be hoped for, and should decide you over the quality of profit share production you'd be prepared to take part in.

With all that said, asking for some kind of contract or response over these questions at auditions is perfectly within your rights; getting accounts delivered to you at the end of a run is also your right. A good profit share setup won't question this, and will respond to you. The bemused reaction in this case implies that the company have not actually thought about their production as a business venture at all, and so are almost certain to be unable to generate any money, because they have no concern for what's being spent or saved, let alone what profit they will ultimately generate.

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